tenorcat:

I saw Hendrix and I saw the Mothers. Did you?

Zappa was an inovative composer and studio arranger. I got Zappa. He was a hundred times the musician Jimi was in my book. Just look at his scores. I don't think Jimi could even read music. Zappa was no Gil Evans, George Russell or Duke Ellington, however.

The thing for me is that he didn't write music that I found beautiful. I find beauty in some of Hendrix work. If I was banished to a desert island and could take ten artists recordings, Zappa wouldn't be one of them. I'd consider Axis Bold as Love, but it might not make it either.

It's all apples and oranges. This is a pretty pointless argument. Are we still in Jr. High School here? I bet I could beat you up and my big brother could beat your big brother!

Zappa's "Watermelon In Easter Hay" is the most beautiful guitar song I have ever heard. But that's just me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Yep, a real genius, and what a songwriter too, with those great tunes about yellow snow, penises, and other themes that are popular 8-year-old kids. 

As far as I'm concerned, the greatest thing Zappa ever did was have Jack Bruce play bass on Apostrophe.

Dylan is probably the only true genius from the 60's music scene.

I realize we are getting way off the thread here, but I have to say that Weird of H, you are so, so wrong.  The only genius was Bob Dylan?  Ever hear of John Lennon?  I also think Hendrix was for sure, for sure.  Other really smart guys were Mike Bloomfield, Paul Kantner, Jerry Garcia, and Pete Townsend.

The word genius is totally subjective, does anybody need look further than David Gilmour?

Lennon wrote some nice songs but he was a hypocrite and a bum. If any Beatle was a musical genius it was Macca. Bob Dylan was probably the only musical and intellectual genius.

Jerry might have been a genius, but I wouldn't know because I haven't heard him speak many words other than 'trip', 'scene', and 'man'

OMG you say Lennon was a hypocrite and a bum? What HERESY! Bite your tongue, shame on you! John Lennon was truly one of the GREATEST song writers in our time!

As for the Hendrix debate here, yeah I saw him live in '68 (maybe '67) in the midwest. His live show was totally awesome. And IMO the reason he is considered to be so great is because he was the first to do many things. This means he had no one to follow in their footsteps, he would have to imagine doing something and then figure out how to do it. Being a guitarist myself for 40+ years has let me know how impossible a feat this is. Imagine hearing a sound, in your head only this sound was never actually played before. Now how in the world are you going to reproduce it?  Well, Hendrix could do that, he was able to figure out how to perform so many sound effects it's unreal.

Sorry if my post appears disjointed etc, I had lot's of fun thru the late 60's and 70's if U know what I mean. So its hard to keep a connected thought going.

Later

I also had lots of fun in the late 60's and early 70's but thankfullly knew when to stop and did not get unfairly dosed (like Peter Green and others did). 

 

Of course, John Lennon AND Paul McCartney are geniuses. (I just like John's tunes and voice better -- in fact, IMO he has the best rock and roll voice ever.)  I was just playing their tunes for my one-year old baby and she was digging them!  They are timeless, and, like Beethoven and Bach, will be played forever. That's because sometimes simplicity is genius. 

I add to my list above -- The Godfather, James Brown.  Also, Ray Davies deserves some consideration, as does (you won't believe this and I think he is a d**k for the way he treated his brother and bandmates), John Fogerty.

Lennon was an amazing songwriter, but he was indeed a hypocrite. He preached about love and peace, but used to hit his first wife (Cynthia), cheated on her, and ignored his son Julian. This mistreatment of his wife and child was inexcusable, and not in the spirit of peace and love. And what was with those bed-ins? What good does laying in a hotel bed talking to reporters do? Also, with a lot of his songs he seemed to be pointing his finger at the listener, saying 'you have to change', while neglecting to acknowledge his own flaws.

Please, tell me one thing John Lennon did to benefit the world, other than giving us great music. I would really love for someone to prove me wrong, but as far as I know, he just talked the talk.

Weird of Hermiston, you have got to be the most pompous, musically uninformed person I have ever heard. In the past few weeks you have espoused that Zappa had nothing to say; you have put down John Lennon by stating that he was merely a "hypocrite and a bum" while maintaining that the only true geniouses were Hendrix, Clapton, and Dylan.

You must (wrongly) think you have been gaining some good momentum here but let me attempt to set you straight. First, when you made the comment that Zappa's music and songwriting was on a child's level, you put a major foot in your mouth. As I said before, you simply don't get it. Have you ever heard of metaphores? Moreover, neither Hendrix nor Clapton could adequately play Zappa's music given that much of Frank's music is simply too complicated to play whilst under the influence. They'd have been booted out of the band the second it became apparent to Zappa that they were using.

Your momentum continued when you said the man had nothing to say. Now the funny thing here is that you made this comment about the musician who argueably had more meaningful things to say than any other musician in your lifetime. Those who are informed, know exactly what I am talking about. I believe you then go on to gush over Bob Dylan which is OK., however I will say that I don't get Dylan and recently walked out of a Dylan concert. I just don't get performers who completely ignore their audience, which is precisely what Dylan did on this night. Now, just because I don't get Dylan, as he does absolutely nothing for me, I can appreciate the impact that he has had on others and I respect him and them for it. But where you made a complete and utter fool of yourself was in taking on Mr. Lennon's lifestyle while ignoring that of your hero, Mr Hendrix. 'The mistreatment of his wife was inexcuseable.' I beg you to look into Jimi's history as it is well documented that he made a habit of physically abusing the women in his life. So to call Lennon a worthless hypocrite and then drool over Mr. Hendrix ... well, I think my point has been made. Finally, I urge you to study up on your music history as there are impressionable young people who likely read your dribble. If I were teaching a class on music history and appreciation you'd be placed in the remedial section, with the Britany Spears fans. Good day.

John Lennon's frailities, excesses, and mistakes are very well documented.  But, you cannot ignore his turnaround late in this life, when he started to "get it."  He was apologizing to all he had hurt and was really, really into being a father and husband.  Weird -- don't you believe in redemption?  Meanwhile, the genius in such simple songs as "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away" and "Come Together" cannot be denied.

BTW, I think Eric Clapton is far from a genius.  He is an good blues guitarist, whose drug escapades led him into new sounds like Cream.  Most of his work after Cream is a pretty damn boring when it comes down to it. And there are 100 better guitarists out there.  And can Weird think he is a genius given he was a heroin addict and stole someone else's wife?

Chelsea Potter:

If I were teaching a class on musical history and appreciation you'd be placed in the remedial section with the Britany Spears fans. Good day.

 

Ouch.

 

'course, you know what they say.  "Opinions are like ********, everyone's got one and they all stink."

 

(by the way, is that a class on the history and appreciation of musicals?  ;-)

First of all, quit reading between the lines. I acknowledged the fact that Lennon wrote great songs, and wasn't merely a hypocrite. The Beatles are my all time favourite group, and songs like Across the Universe and Dear Prudence are some of the most beautiful I've ever heard. But he still contradicted himself with his actions.

I don't know why you brought Hendrix into this, as I never claimed that Hendrix was some sort of saint. The difference between Hendrix and Lennon is that people don't gush over Hendrix as being some wonderful promoter of peace, who had a massively positive impact on the world. If Hendrix had bed-ins for peace and wrote songs like Give Peace a Chance and All You Need is Love I would think that he was a bit of a hypocrite too. But even his most politically inclined songs never pointed fingers like Lennon's did.

And again, quit reading between the damn lines - I never said that Hendrix or Clapton were musical geniuses. Clapton is one of the greatest guitar players ever, who had a larger impact on the world of guitar than almost anyone (including Zappa), but I don't know if he is what you would call a genius.

Also, to criticize my knowledge of music history is a bit silly, as it is really my opinions that are pissing you off. Just because someone doesn't agree with your music taste doesn't mean that they know nothing about musical history. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd whoop you in a test of knowledge of 60's and 70's rock n roll and blues.

 

p.s. I'm still waiting for somebody to cite one thing that Lennon did to make the world a better and safer place...

Lennon...he got shot...made the world a better place by ensuring there would never be a cheesy Las Vegas lounge act at the Beatles Reunion Concert Hall at the Rio;  two shows nightly.   Woulda been sad to see them go out like Elvis.

 

just sit them down and let them listen to Angel or Little Wing ,or the long version of Voodoo Child on Electric Ladyland,there have been some great players around nanely Alvin Lee,Peter Green,Jeff Beck,Jimmy Page,Rory Gallagher,Paul Kossoff Eric Clapton,Johnny Winter,Duanne Allman,even Slash to a certain extent,but non come close to JIMI for emotion technique and the controlled use of feedback.If they can,t get it its apity but we know how good he was and we got the albums and memories to prove it . take care from Nev( a fellow Jimi fan)

Hendrix was god! He was so fare ahead of his time many people still don't fully understand his music. From lighting his guitar on fire at concerts to his soul moving music. Let them listen to little wing, castles made of sand, and all along the watchtower and discus the meaning behind them. I just turned 15 today so they should be able to relate to that.