i agree, halfly with Peter. while i do think Plant is one of the most unfortunate things to happen to "music" in the last 50 years, i also believe the band was one of the most bad ass rhythm sections of the genre. "led foot" drumming and even out of tune bass playing are sort of definitive (if not at least acceptable) facets of rock and roll (just listen to fucking bill wyman - the guy was almost always out but it was almost charming to listen to). i guess the fact that rock and roll music has for some reason (and some artists) transcended tuning, tempo, ability, and taste, is a testament to it's greatness. as with the blues music it came from, rock's harshness and tempo-dropping is part of the "*** you" mentality it originally spawned from. so that's my defense for tuning issues and straight balls out ethics of turning up and being a "rock god" or whatever.
in regards to the fabulous elvis costello and the attractions, i feel like their punk energy, as precise as they all are as players, is not all dissimilar to the kind of energy in "Livin Lovin". i mean what is rock and roll if not a measurement of energy? it's not about much else... other wise it wouldnt include records like Elvis at Sun with Iggy and Stooge's Raw Power. the players in zep (bonham, jones, page) werent exactly "wankers". listen to donovan's hurdy gurdy man album - where the zep boys originally met - and you can hear how truely keen their ears were. page's production skills on zep records were grade A.

all things aside, i feel like this one of those bands that is both one of the most over-rated, and under-rated bands of all time.

Your knowledge of Rock is awesome. I shall name thee Dewey Finn.

Hey it's all gravy, I like BOC, Black Sabbath, and Nugent as much as I like Zep so what the fck do I know?

Petey

 

Peter H:

Let me ask the bootleg experts if your tapes sound more like these sets from the Vault or from How The West Was Won?

the reason they took 34 years to release a proper live album was because they were too lazy to do the endless overdubs that were necessary to make it tolerable.

I've got an audience recording from the Long Beach set (6/27/72) from How the West Was Won.   Amazingly, it sounds like How the West Was Won.   I've also got a great soundboard of Dancing Days from the same show, and it's identical to the version on the official release.  But, like you said, I'm sure my bootlegs were overdubbed by the band for underground release.

"Yes, a lot more people found Lord of the Rings through LZ than found real blues."
- I'm not going to bother with this one.  LOL!
"And that Rod Stewart guy is a better singer. Yeah, I said it.  (After ‘74 I can’t defend Rod..."
- Hey, you said it.  If it weren't for the Beatles, Rod Stewart would probably be making albums of pop standards and.... oh, wait.  

I don't think this is really an appropriate place to be discussing this, but I guess it must be ok if it's gone on for this long.

Anyway. I used to be a huge Zeppelin fan, I thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Their songs could give me chills and I played their albums all the time. But once I started to explore blues music, I discovered the shocking side of Led Zeppelin: theft. The majority of the lyrics in their blues-based songs were taken from old blues artists - which would be fine, if they had actually given them credit! To blatantly steal a songs like Bring it On Home or Killing Floor and credit the lyrics to 'Page/Plant' is disgusting. I can't believe they got away with such blatant plagiarism. And it wasn't just blues artists that they ripped off. Page took Babe I'm Gonna Leave You and other songs and chord progressions from obscure folk singers. Even the intro to Stairway was taken from a song by an old band called Spirit. And when they did write their own lyrics, they were about elves and wizards and magic.

Zeppelin could rock though. Just listen to a song like Communication Breakdown. It's got balls. Same with Heartbreaker, Living Loving Maid, Houses of the Holy, etc. Page was a thief and a fairly sloppy guitar player, but he was quite innovative with his instrument and very skilled too. He was also a master craftsmen of great riffs. And I don't get why people bash Plant. I admit that on live cuts he could be horrible. That call and response between Page's guitar and Plant's shrieks can hardly pass for creative improvisation - it was terrible! But on record, he delivered some amazing performances. I think he is one of the great rock vocalists. Zeppelin's real bread and butter was their rhythm section. Bonham was one of the great rock drummers; a total powerhouse. And JPJ always delivered tasty basslines. The bass playing on What is and What Should Never Be was probably the first bass playing I ever really noticed and dug.

Led Zeppelin have their flaws, but I still think they're better than any pop music being recorded today. However, these statements like "Zeppelin was the most influential band ever" are completely bunk. You need to learn some musical history before you make such silly comments. Zeppelin would not exist if it weren't for guys like Elvis and Chuck Berry. And biggest band ever? HELL no. Ever heard of a little band called the Beatles? They were, and remain, far more important and influential than Zeppelin ever could hope to be. Just look at the record books for proof. Also, artists like Bob Dylan, the Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, etc. had just as much, if not more, impact and influence as Led Zeppelin.

And by the way, when it comes to hard rock and blues rock, Cream completely own Led Zep. If you want to hear REAL improvisation, improv with direction and power, head to the Cream section and listen to Spoonful. Prepare to have your reality shattered when you realise that there was a band far greater and heavier than Zeppelin who recorded more good material in 2 years than Zep did in their entire carreer. And they actually credited the writers that they borrowed from too.

By the way, Zep are not the most overrated band ever - The Doors are :)

Wow where to begin here? I love Zep as much as the rest of rock fans. They have their flaws like every other rock band. Sometimes when I have heard them live that have sucked royal I mean bad. Other times they have been out of this world good. It just depends on the night.

Yes they did rip off some older blues guys in some cases with lyrics but what rock artist hasn't taken some blues lyrics from somewhere. Look at Hendrix, Clapton, Vaughn, Shoot George Thoorogood made a career off of doing it.

But to say that Zep is the worst band in the world for some of the things listed here is just crazy.

Sometimes live all singers can sound like cats in a washing machine it just happens. That is a fact of live music. I know as guitarist\singer we used to video tape and audio tape some of our live preformances witch included some all original sets of songs I wrote and I was not always pitch perfect. So all of us have that problem from time to time. Bottom line cut Robert a break. He is still in one of the most highly reguarded bands in rock ever weither you like them or not. That is just your opinion. 

Peter H.  OK you have a right to your opinion. Not everyone can understand Zeppelin and appreciate their milestone. Remember though, you are vastly outnumbered by the rock crowd. No man is an Island. Heh.  You just weren't there in late 60's and 70's like I and millions of others were. You weren't Hip. Sorry.  : (                                                                                                           Also, I think you read too many Rolling Stone reviews( I remember when it was printed on rag paper, not glossy.)  They put Zep down continually........but...nobody listened. Their fame spread from their music and by word of mouth of rock appreciators who attended the concerts and bought the LP's.( Remember vinyl LP's?)  No advertising on TV... or Radio .....or Mags.    Enough said.

Rory

Yes no man is an island but as the Jefferson Airplane said “he’s a peninsula.” Once again, just because something is popular doesn’t mean it is necessarily good. That’s like saying that the popular kids in high school are the best because they’re popular. The majority isn’t always wise. (59,054,087 people can’t be wrong can they?)

 

My opinions are my own. Not the Rolling Stone. (Still occasionally good political writing.) But do not underestimate the power of the rock press back then when there was such a thing. Of course RS was wrong about lots of bands. But it was provocative and for those of us halfway between either coast Cream and RS and the others provided little peeks inside the cool world.

 

I know I’m expressing a minority opinion and I’m glad to see a few out there who agree in full or in part. And when you consider that most people who think LZ was a sham wouldn’t be checking out a forum related to the dreaded Zeppelin you’re not going to hear a variety of voices here. Even if it’s one of the most active threads. I started this thread as a reaction to listening to the Vault concerts and thinking that my opinions are further validated. But if Led Zeppelin’s (and others) lawsuits prevail, this will all be dust in the wind.

 

As I said in post 5796, seen ‘em. “You just weren't there in late 60's and 70's like I and millions of others were. You weren't Hip.” Not Hip? Now? I’m lucky if I don’t break a hip. Back then? Who knows? Who cares or cared? Back in my youth if you worried about being hip, you weren’t. I just love’s my rock and roll especially when it’s genuine and royalties get paid. Free is nice too. The Vault is great because of the huge variety. I don’t think I’ll be checking out Sheena Easton but it is nice to hear some of the bands that I never came across back in the day. (Slade?)

 

It’s a shame that your beloved Led Zeppelin is one of the bands trying to shut this place down. It’s bizarre enough that they think the music is free so someone can sell some old posters. That would imply that the used posters are more valuable than the music. Which doesn’t say much about the music does it? Ironically if you roll back to the Song Remains the Same film, there’s a bit where the manager, Peter Green is on a tirade about unauthorized posters.

 

I bet it’s a control thing too. If Page and Plant can’t overdub, they don’t want you the loyal Led Zeppelin fan to hear it. That is not what rock and roll gods really need to worry about now is it? Not with the new 6 cd boxed set being pushed for the holidays?

 

SAVE THE VAULT!!!! You fans out there, you must still be writing the gushing teeny bopper letters to your heroes. Write the ones that are still alive and tell them not to blow up the Vault.

Dear Peter,

I can respect your opinion of LZ, because it's a big world (roughly the size of the Earth, more or less) and we are all just teeny by comparison (which is a good thing because there are a bunch of us, and it would suck, in a major way, if we were large as compared to the Earth).

Personally, I have always found Page to be "sloppy". And yes, there is a lot of recycled / stolen blues involved. Pretense abounds. The roll was knocked out of rock and roll. Thank <insert deity here> for that. LZ is a ROCK BAND. Maybe THE rock band. Certainly one of the prototypical rock bands that define the genre.

NEWS FLASH: I have no use for the Grateful Dead. I totally skipped the entire punk era. I do not like Yes. Early Genesis bores me. What the F is King Crimson? I think the Stones were WAY better than the Beatles. Richie Blackmore is the absolute worst performer ever born. See? I am full of hot sports opionons, too. Roger Waters sucks on his own, Floyd was better of without him -freakin crybaby.

But - I hear you, brother. Somewhere, somehow, lawyers are going to mess this up. They always do, it is their job (aside from ambulance chasing and blood sucking). I kinda doubt that Page, Plant, or even Jones are really concerned, but their lawyer Vlad might be, he needs to bill some hours. 90% of the artists represented on this site have already made a ton of money of of your humble narrator, and continue to do so, as all concerts presented here pay royalties. If Lawyer Zeppelin sues and causes it to shut down (anybody remember the old MP3.com?) then Page / Plant will get a "***" next to their name in my book. It won't STOP me from listening to LZ  (I still listen to Metallica, but all the lyrics now sound like "Lars is a  greedy two year old thumb sucking jack ass").

<bait> Pearl Jam is nothing but recycled / ripped off 70's hard rock </bait>

love,

jingo

 

 

Uhm Peter H,  I guess you love the Zepp and you like to talk about them don't you?

Anyway, I thought I was on the Stones forum, when I saw the title of your 3D...........

I think this was posted as a ruse to get things going!  It worked.  Hey, Pete H., I'm same age as you, was 14 in 1969.  I grew up in Southern California, went to a LOT of shows at The Forum, Santa Monica Civic, to name a few.  Saw Jim Morrison in San Diego.  I saw Led Zeppelin twice, first time at The Forum, Jimmy Page doing his violin bow on the guitar.  I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.  Makes one melt.  Die-hard fan ever since.  Saw The Firm in 1986, just to see Jimmy again!  'Since I've been loving you' has got to the most raw, heart-felt, bone-chilling blues song ever.  All these years later I still crank it loud as I can! 

Agree that it depends on how old you are, but my 17-year-old son has some friends that are really into the classic stuff, such as Zep.  It transcends all, that's the beauty of it, and the beauty of The Vault. 

How many guys stood back in wonderment at Robert Plant, the girls that threw themselves at him....The Emperor.  Yeah, thought so. 

Peter H you are an overeducated idiot. I normally don't take the bait and respond in kind but I can't help it.

First of all the constant resume flashing is fcking annoying and me thinks you protest too much ie. you are in fact a 34 year old *** living at homw with your parents. No one cares this much negatively or positively about any band if they are over the age 40. Seriously. "I took drivers ed in 71 with a chick who loved James Taylor, I saw led Zep and ergo I know everything. Did I mention the first album was the Beatles before they were big and I was 9, a musical prodigy". So on the off chance that you are your claimed age I will retract my *** insult if you promise to get off your high horse.

 

Secondly you idiot (apology #2 forthcoming) - I never saw Zep but I am old enough to have bought their albums when they were still a band. I did see Plant 3 fcking times and not with the gushing teeny bopper shades on. I have been to the rodeo and I wasn't the clown. Seen a million fcking bands and legends  and I won't wax poetic about "Smell of pot and free love". I know what fcking singing is good fcking good singing. He has an amazing voice and presence live - in the 80s anyway, everything (EXCEPT SRTS) on DVD indicates it was true in the 70's as well. Check out "Live at the Scala" with Strange Sensation if you want to really hear the ***. Apology # 2 - I am sorry your'e an idiot.

 

Thirdly Page may be sloppy but that's because because he's a fckup drug addict that weighed 111 lbs and ate French fries for dinner every day. But the sloppy early *** is fcking electric. Overdub my ass....

Fourthly I've never thought in the grand "Rock And Roll" terms that you like to imbue and frankly never thought any body that did was mature enough to not buy all the *** that RS sells. I do like music especially live music but think enough to realize every jackass in the world has some talent - hence the Gallagher brothers, David Lee Roth (only with Van Halen), Van Morrison, Eddie Vedder, and Chad Kroeger, have all risen above their lame jackassedness to use their god given talent. Your essays make me think you are Matt Damon reincarnated circa "Good Will Hunting" slamming the preppie in the bar with your brilliance.

Fifthly - that being said I am music whore and have seen/will see every band and every type of music that I can. LIVE. Van halen (DLR and SH), ACDC (7X) Priest (British Steel tour) Sabbath with DIo, Springsteen (3x), Willy Nelson, Tool, Soundgarden, Meat Puppets, Steve Earle ( 4X -AKA God ) Iron Maiden (2x) Bowie (2X) Police, Smashing Pumpkins, Rolling Stones (4X) Pearl jam, Mettallica (3X) Plant (3x), The Tragically Hip  (6x), Black crowes (2x) Jay Farrar (4 X) Son Volt (3x) Wilco (Tweedy is also a God among Men) (7X), Duran Duran, U2 (3x), Emmylou Harris, BTO, April Wine, Weird Al, Audioslave, The Who(res), Rod Stewart, Celine Dion, I also have a collection of over 200 classic Jazz from the 50's and 60's. See hpw annoying the resume flashing is - nobody gives a flying fck - it's musical masturbation.

 

And FInally you condescending little twerp (apology #3 coming up) the only other thing you got right is that the vault is a valuable site that should not be shut down by the rich and famous. Especially when alot of this stuff is already out there for any real fans of bootlegs, and will only boost the flagging sales of most of these washed up has beens. I mean who knew the Atlanta Rhytym Section actually kicked ass?

Apology #3 - it's all in good fun and kept me away from my drab life for 15 minutes whilst I wrote this epic.

Peter Grant aka Andrew Loog Oldham

 

 

 

Hello, You are right...it was 1975 and 1977 tours I saw Led Zep on. Just a case of too many rock concerts and too many years back. Thanks. They rocked!!       Rory in Indiana

Peter H., OK..you didn't HAVE to be hip back in the 60's and 70's ..I am just saying that their albums sold by word of mouth..not advertising. That alone is proof that they had IT! Let's see today's artists sell millions of original ,reworked blues in a rock vein without advertising. It won't happen. Today it's all about advertising. That was hip back in the day. It sold Zep's LP's.                          Like you and many others, I am totally pissed if Plant/Page & Neil Young Sue the Vault and close it down. There was a time when they stood against everything in society that was part of "The Machine". Now they have joined it and gone beyond. How rich do they have to be?                          I believe that they should leave Graham's recordings alone for posterity. ( I guarantee that I would, if  I was in their position.) They would only gain more fame by allowing the new generations free listening of a few songs here. I am sure they would buy cd's just to hear more of their legacy. Heck! I would consider it Free advertising in the long run. So what if the recordings are not Dolbyized or are raw performances..that is what I like about them. No studio tricks or overdubs. It is all Realtime.      Pagey & Plant.... I and many others will lose respect for you both ,if you continue on the war against Grahams great recordings.Show your multitude of fans that you appreciate the monies and followings spent on your past glory. We are what made you rich. Don't forget. Without your fans..you would be blue collar workers like most of us. ..... Zeplinized...  Rory( Rock bass player)  in Indiana

I own a few thousand records (about 20K actually) so I have the library to listen to a lot of stuff, most of it rock. I'm hearing almost as much hype on here from the LZ fans as they got from AM radio when they first started out. My pedigree, kids, is that I saw their 1st Chicago appearance at a place called the Kinetic Playground in about 68(?). They were nobody then, just another band on the lineup for the evening. A year later they were in HEAVY ROTATION on the AM radio playlists and the "underground stations" were playing LP sides, so much for the "word of mouth" popularity theory. When you're being force-fed a band, you either love or hate 'em and most jumped on the bandwagon with both feet! The early LZ was alright even if it was "borrowed" (OK, ripped off) from real blues artists. They did a great job of electrifying it and presenting it to people who wouldn't otherwise hear blues music. After the third LP though, they got wildly pretentious. By then, they had become like the Beatles doing their 'White Album' wherein the attitude seemed to be, "just stick any kind of sh*t between the covers, they'll still buy it". As for any kind of legitimacy derived from lots of bands trying to copy them, well let's see, there were Beatles copies, Monkees copies, hell, just about every band that was even slightly successful had a copy, even Alvin & the Chipmunks had a copy band! So I don't think that means they were that great, just that some others wanted a slice of the pie. I re-ran "The Song Remains The Same" recently and got a chance to refresh my memory of the 'rock gods' in action. Years after the fact, I still haven't figured out whether Plant was pointing towards the ceiling so we'd all look up, or if he was just waiting for the booger to dry on that finger. What remarkable stage presence! And Page's rock star suit was to die for! (Or from!) I can handle Page's playing, I actually think he deserves the recognition. He did earn a place in the Yardbirds, and they'd gotten used to the best. Plant on the other hand with the midriff blouse and the "mamamamamamama" lyrical interludes leaves me wondering why he didn't just pop that booger in his mouth and shut up. The bottom line though is that two of what I consider the best songs in R&R are by LZ. (No, not that overplayed crap about the stairwell.) I mean "Battle of Evermore", and "When the Levee Breaks".